[00:00] Valerie: Rise.
[00:01] Valerie: Renew.
[00:01] Valerie: Reconnect. Welcome to from the Ashes, a podcast where every episode ignites hope and healing. Today I'm interviewing my new friend and fellow JET program alum, Ian Chun. Ian is the founder of you know me Life, a global tea e commerce business based in Tokyo, Japan. Ian was born and raised in Honolulu, Hawaii and he made his first solo trip off the island when he set off to Brown University determined to become an astronomer. But sleeping through his first year courses in quantum mechanics and linear algebra, he discovered he'd much rather study Japanese literature. And much to the chagrin of his parents, who hoped he would become an engineer, Ian set off on the philosopher's path in 1999, immersing himself in the culture and society of Japan. His in depth knowledge and appreciation for the culture of Japan has opened many doors in the Japanese tea world, one of Japan's most traditionally closed industries, forming the foundation of what is now you know me. In today's conversation, we meet up at Ian's shop in Tokyo and get into the messiness that is the journey of life and entrepreneurship. Without holding anything back, Ian shares his experiences, the good, the bad and the ugly of what it looks like to turn passion and purpose into business and how t can teach us a lot more than we might think about the journey of life.
[01:31] Ian: Shadows may come, try to tear you
[01:33] Valerie: apart, but you're the all right. So welcome everyone to from the Ashes podcast. I have Ian Chun here today and he is the owner of Yunomi Matcha in Tokyo and we met through the JET Alumni association here. And once I got to know Ian's shop and what he does, I really want to tell his story or have him tell his story and share some of the the depth of knowledge that he has about Matcha. So we're just going to have a conversation about tea today and Ian's journey and everything in between. So enjoy and as we prepare some matcha for for you and just talk shop. So yeah, thanks Ian for having me.
[02:19] Ian: Thank you very much for interviewing giving me this opportunity to talk about everything. So I'm the owner of you know me Life. You know me Life is the company name. We are a. We are basically an e commerce business. We've been in e commerce business since 2012 and then we just launched this Matcha shop specializing in matcha. This actually this is the second iteration of this shop. Originally this was in another location, but there were issues with the location and how much it cost and various other things. So we found this location and we decided to focus specifically on Matcha only as a product key for the shop. And we've been able to find a lot more success with, with focusing on Matcha. The other shop we had first started as an E commerce business. We have a thousand teas, something like 200 different local producers focusing on small scale producers. And I had set up the company because I was helping small scale, a couple of small scale tea farms promote their product overseas using E commerce. And then I started the business to help aggregate those clients into one umbrella brand. And that's why we had a, that's why we've grown to a thousand teas. Whereas most tea companies, you really want to focus on their main products, most food, most product companies in general want to focus on main products. Yeah, but we are building not a marketplace in the way that like Amazon's third party marketplace is a marketplace, but more like a marketplace in the way that Amazon buys and sells their own products. And so we started the first cafe and we had, we're trying to make it look like we had a thousand products. We tried to bring all like samples of all thousand teas that we had to that location. And then we found that while we've grown into a pretty good, decent sized small business selling a thousand products globally, specific shop itself, most people came, you can't drink a thousand teas in one shop. But really the most people came and drank matcha latte. So yeah, you know, unfortunately for any of tea connoisseurs out there, majority of people just want a matcha latte. It's, it's a little bit sad but you know that's, that's, you can't fight the market. Right?
[04:56] Valerie: Yeah.
[04:57] Ian: Right now I'm gonna make some matcha. You have some matcha on my staff, but you make some for myself. We're using a 70 degree Celsius water, maybe a little bit higher, but 75 degrees Celsius. And I'm using. This is from one of our producers called Shogokun.
[05:13] Valerie: Okay.
[05:14] Ian: This is the leftovers of a very expensive matcha actually.
[05:19] Valerie: So I guess I want to start actually with how you got into this. So you know, a lot of my audience probably hasn't heard about JET and like how you got to Japan and all of that. So start from there. And then how did you get into tea specifically and actually owning a business?
[05:40] Ian: I usually start this conversation from the point where I started to meet when I first met the first client, which is a tea farmer from Kyoto. But when, since this is the JET program connection and that goes way, way back, right yeah. So basically I started. I. Well, I'm a graduate of Brown University. I went originally to Brown University to study astronomy. I discovered. I mean, as a young kid, like a lot of young kids watched cartoons. And so I love, you know, I love the cartoons. And I actually two things happened at Brown. I was introduced to Japanese literature. First, Murakami Haruki, and then Kawabaki Asunari. Then I was also introduced to anime by a friend. I got into both, like, the literary side of things as well as the. The pop culture side of things. And I decided that I was going to. Actually, I did an internship at the Institute of Astronomy. And I decided that I didn't actually like working in astronomy. I love studying it. And I still, you know, people doom scroll things. And when I Doom Scroll YouTube, I'm usually watching about videos about dark matter and cosmology. And I still love it, but it's not something I. I want to study it. I don't want to actually do the research. The research was incredibly boring.
[07:11] Valerie: Okay.
[07:11] Ian: It's tedious and boring stuff. You know, finding out what people have discovered is interesting. And then I. So I switched my major to Japanese literature or Comparative Literature. And then I came, and in the process, I decided I was going to do a year in Japan. So I studied in Japan, and then I'm like, wow, Japan's really nice place to live. I decided that I really, really loved Japan and living here. And I'm originally from Hawaii, so it was more comfortable for me to be in Japan than it was for me to be in continental United States, especially the East Coast. Yeah, I love my time at Brown, but I lost 10, 15 pounds my first year on an all you can eat meal plan. I lost weight because I didn't like the food.
[07:59] Valerie: Ah.
[08:00] Ian: And so I decided that I wanted to live in Japan. And then I applied for the jet program. And it was easy way to. For you to get to Japan. And so when I did the jet program, I was in Okinawa, which was like, you know, coming from Hawaii, the. Apparently, like, a lot of the people from Hawaii get sent to Okinawa for one reason or another. But, you know, I was there and I was like, I'm not here to experience a Japanese version of Hawaii. I'm here to, you know, I wanted to. I was studying abroad in Kyoto, so I'm. I have that experience. And then I'm like, I want to get back to. And then my friends from Kyoto had all moved to Tokyo, and so I wanted to get to Tokyo, and I found a job in publishing. So I worked in at a Japanese surfing izing company for a couple years for one year and then I quit and did freelance while I studied for my master's and I did a master's at Sophia University for in literature studying the motif of rooftops. Then I decided I didn't want to go into academia because teaching kids is hard also. So I went into, I got a job in marketing at an IT company and I learned, I spent four or five years there and I learned all about marketing, marketing, product development. Q and A question, quality assurance, pr. We did a lot of things in my role and so it actually kind of prepared me to start my own business. And then it just happened that a colleague there had met a tea farmer who was involved in setting up his own e commerce website. And then he was also going to various places around the world and trying to promote Japanese tea. And this was in 2009. My wife had been gotten into an MBA at Cornell University. So I'm like, well I don't really like corporate, I'm a literature. You know, I came from an academic background. I don't really like being a businessman or a corporate warrior. And if you're going to do that then let's focus on your career and I'll just do what I need to do to contribute to the family and to, to finance financially as well as time wise.
[10:18] Valerie: Yeah.
[10:19] Ian: And so when I quit my job and supported her as she was doing her mba, I met this tea farmer and I was like, oh, I'm free now, I can help you out. And so I had been doing e commerce websites for the company before as part of my marketing job and so I knew how to set up things and so I helped him set up and he then introduced me to other tea farmers who wanted this. But you know, small scale tea farms are not a lucrative business as a consultant. So if you're going to be a consultant helping other people start their business or start build their websites and start their manage their businesses for them, you need to do it for larger companies. So I In that 2000, between 2010 and 2012 I was managing a couple of different T websites for different companies and I would get these inquiries from people and they would send the same inquiry to each company because there weren't a lot of Japanese companies who had websites in English. And so I would respond to each of them. I am Ian from this company. I'm Ian from this company. I'm in from this company. And then it got very awkward as I tried to manage Each discussion separately as representatives of the separate companies. And at that point, it was just like, let's start an umbrella company. And that became, you know, So I didn't get into tea because I liked tea. I'll be ready to admit that I'm also a coffee drinker. Yeah, I don't know much about coffee. I don't know much about coffee other than that. There's this one coffee shop near my house who has a dark roast that I like.
[11:59] Valerie: Okay.
[11:59] Ian: Other than that, I know very little about coffee. But to tea was fascinating to me because it is part of Japanese culture.
[12:06] Valerie: Yeah.
[12:06] Ian: And as part of Japanese culture, you know, it's deep. It's the one product, even not one product, but it is one of the products that is deep. Deep. Deeply ingrained and influenced. Has influenced Japanese culture. The tea ceremony, you know, primarily the tea ceremony. But the tea ceremony is one of the. You could say one of the pillars of what has become Japanese aesthetics. Japanese. Japanese approach to hospitality. For example, like omotenashi, that comes from the tea ceremony, the idea of hosting somebody as a guest, and then the formalization of the ritual. And I have to make a disclaimer that I'm not a practitioner of the tea ceremony myself. I don't think I have the patience for it. But, you know, it's. It's philosophy, philosophically, academically, it's very interesting to learn about it. So I've learned about it. I don't necessarily try to incorporate it into this space. Actually, certain things are very Japanese. So the idea of minimalism comes from certain type of tea ceremony that has been very influential in Japan. And so that's one reason why this place is minimalist. But that's not the. You know, we're not. Essentially, we're not trying to imitate the tea ceremony in this business, or I don't want to.
[13:36] Valerie: Yeah.
[13:37] Ian: If anything, I'd like to modernize, create a modern version of the tea ceremony. Something that suits what we need. What we need now in this day and age, in 2026, what we need as people, like, mentally, spiritually. I think. I think the tea ceremony, there should be a different approach, I think, to it. Or there can be. There can be a different approach that is beneficial to some people rather than the tea cereal for others.
[14:16] Valerie: All right, so can you explain a little bit about the actual, like, traditional. Traditional approach? And then, like, you know, what is it that you want to bring forth? And then what would you want to kind of pivot?
[14:30] Ian: I haven't thought about that too much. I'LL be honest. But the tea ceremony is, is, you know, a. For. For Most of the 70 something Schools of tea ceremony. Tea ceremony is a practice of aesthetics, the pursuit of beauty, the pursuit of certain spirituality at the same time, but through the pursuit of beauty. So what is beautiful? And that was a question that tea ceremonies, different schools of channel you argue about. From my understanding of it, the Wabi Sabi school, the Wabicha school that is most famous to three Senkei schools, Ura Senkei, Mote Senkei was the other one, Sarah. And the third one, everybody forgets. I'm sorry. And there's that line of tea ceremony that thinks about minimalism, thinks about the impermanence of beauty in life. The fact that life is transient and disappears. And they're talking about finding beauty in that. So things are simplistic and it's. So they, they promoted a return to simplicity. Simple is simplism. Is that a word? And so that's why the tea room itself is very humble, is kind of like the idea of it is that it's like the hut of a hermit living in the mountains.
[15:55] Valerie: Yeah.
[15:56] Ian: And that's. And, but at the same time it's a pursuit of beauty. So you don't actually want to be a hut in the mountains, you want to be a hut on the, on your luxurious estate. And so I, in a, in a sense, I actually also found that there is some hypocrisy. I mean, you know, in the end, these people who are promoting these philosophies are also the sons of rich merchants. Senoritu was the son like the third son or something like that of a very rich merchant. They were also merchants who were selling ammunitions to the daimyo at that time. Right. So it's helpful for them to sell extremely expensive rare pieces of teaware, but also to sell like arms to warlords. Right. So there's that aspect of it and then there's some forms of tea ceremony or channel. You come from a different line of thought, mainly from the samurai class about how refined you should be as a person. And so in terms of that refinement, they're a little bit more extravagant, I guess you could say. So you would. And how you portain yourself in society. Is that the right word, how you hold yourself in society? You should dress in the best clothing, you should, you know, stand up straight, which is what everyone should do. But it's the two ceremony, but it's also how you approach life. And that's what the practice of the way of Tea that's why it's called the way of tea in Japanese. Not, not like, not like the ocha no gishiki. Right. It's not the tea, it's not a tea ceremony. It's a way of tea, meaning a way of life. A way of life that teaches you how to live.
[17:43] Valerie: Okay.
[17:43] Ian: And so that's a similar thing with, you know, martial arts, right?
[17:47] Valerie: Yep.
[17:48] Ian: You know, ikebana is also those types of things, but in the pursuit of expertise of one specific field, you gain insight into how you live. And I think that specific, that core of what that is, can be a canon should be adapted to modern life. And you know, they, the business, they didn't have milk in the 16th century in Japan that I know of.
[18:20] Valerie: Or maybe not available to the extent
[18:22] Ian: that, well, you know, it was a, it was a Buddhist society. So like they didn't eat a whole lot of meat and things like that meat was. And that's why you, how you count rabbits, you count rabbits in terms of pretending that they are birds, right?
[18:35] Valerie: Okay, I didn't know that.
[18:37] Ian: Okay. The counter for rabbits is.
[18:41] Valerie: Okay.
[18:42] Ian: Am I right here? I'm right there. Yeah. I'm gonna for grab it. And the, the idea is that, you know, you pretend they're birds because you don't actually want to eat meat. And by doing so you're able to fulfill your, your obligation to Buddhist philosophy of avoiding me. So anyway, the eight and a half milk, but, but the, you know, in, you know, if we think about like how we want to drink something that tastes good to us, to our, to ourselves. And so, you know, having, having matcha as a latte versus having matcha straight. We should incorporate this into the tea ceremony. Why not? I mean, it's how, look how beautiful it is, right? I mean that beauty and then it tastes creamier. And so what does that mean? I don't know what that means.
[19:50] Valerie: Richer, more nourishing maybe.
[19:53] Ian: So you, you have a, you have a matcha, pure matcha that has. This matcha has a very, it's a little bit old, but very high grade product. And so it has a very strong umami flavor to it. But I made it very strong. And then that, that is, I mean it's the difference between drinking an espresso versus a latte, right?
[20:14] Valerie: Yeah.
[20:15] Ian: And I like both. And so when I want to drink an espresso, I should drink an espresso when I want to drink a latte. But what does that mean in terms of a wider way of living? I don't know yet, but we can think of one.
[20:27] Valerie: Well, let me reflect back to you. Something that you said that I think is really cool is that it's like the way of tea, right? So there's. Is it chado in Japanese or is it.
[20:36] Ian: You generally say.
[20:38] Valerie: But the second word is dou, right, which is the dao. So in Chinese philosophy, we have the dao, which is the way. But you can have so many different ways depending on what your practice is. So like the way of tea or like, you know, I think in Korean they have. Taekwondo is a type of martial arts. Right. So. Or in Japanese there's. Yeah. Judo.
[20:58] Ian: Judo, you have like, aikido, you have. You have kodo. Kodo is the way of incense, you know, in the. The pursuit. And it's like, you know, I guess in Buddhism, you study the mandala to. To gain enlightenment. I mean, this practicing and focusing on one specific thing is a path towards enlightenment. And Buddhist, Buddhism, I guess I'm not a expert on that, but so, yeah, if we can. I don't know what is. What is the way of matcha latte? I don't know. But latte dough is not something should develop it.
[21:39] Valerie: You know, I. I think a lot of baristas ascribe to latte dough. What.
[21:45] Ian: What does it mean to. To be. To have a way of. Way of the barista? Could be Aristotle.
[21:51] Valerie: Yeah.
[21:52] Ian: Could be. I don't know, could be play Doh. I don't know.
[21:56] Valerie: What is Ian do? Right. Like, how have you turned this into something that's very uniquely yours? And how has that affected your life overall?
[22:03] Ian: So I come from a generation. I feel like. I feel so old when I say that, but. And I don't really understand what the stereotypes of each generation are, but I grew up thinking I'm probably full of myself for thinking like this, but, I mean, I grew up thinking that I want to change the world. Right. I think the stereotype, at least the stereotype of. Of younger people now is that you people want to take care of themselves. But I think I grew up with a philosophy or with a mindset of we should sacrifice ourselves in order not to be rich, but to change the world, to make the world a better place for ourselves. I think my generation really has failed at it. That's a different story. But, you know, that's. That's in. And then, you know, the reason why I started a company rather than join the tea company. Not actually. That's not one. That's not the reason. I mean, the main reason is my wife made all the Money and she wanted, she needs to be in Tokyo and I didn't, I couldn't be in Tokyo and work for, for the tea company. But I, I launched a business and I pursued this business as a business because I felt that the, the way that I could change the world, the way that I could make an impact on the world that my. The industry of teachers tea is for us to not just sell tea, not just sell good tea, not just like partner with a. Build a tight relationship, build a strong relationship with a wonderful farmer. But I felt that we should have an opportunity for farmers in general and producers and factories at the small scale. What I saw was like it was very easy for large scale businesses to buy from large scale businesses and you know, there's a transaction and the movement of tea en masse in order to save on costs. I felt that there was no opportunity for artisanal tea in the global market when I started the business in 2012. There needed to be an opportunity for like the thousands of tea farmers. Not all of them are able to sell tea because if you're a farmer you have to process the tea in order to sell it. The processing of the tea requires your own factory, also requires a refinement factory. There's going to be matcha that requires a grinding factory. Most farms don't have all three. Most farms in terms of number of people belong to co ops that have the initial factory but they don't have the other factories. The wholesalers in the industry have the other factories. So finding and the grinding. And there's also specialization of knowledge and techniques at each step. Right. So farmers generally are good at farming hopefully and the ones who run the factory are good at processing it. And then they don't often also have the refinement equipment. And usually that requires another factory or at least a large factory with a room for refinement. And so there's specialty in that and there's specialty in brine. And all of that requires at the scale that you would need to have all of those factories you have to have, I mean it's. You become a pretty big business. Yeah. I actually know a farmer in Kagoshima who is him and his wife and his one employee and they are, they are betting on this Matcha global Matcha boom. They took out like a $3 million loan and they transformed their family's Sencha factory into one that produces the type of green tea form of matcha which is called Tencha. Then they're also building a refinement and grinding facility with Storage capacity as well. So storage capacity is also another specialization. But in general, like I like getting back to your original question, like I wanted to create a, create an opportunity for these small scale farms to be able to access, access the global market. I mean generally if they're not at a big scale then a big, big buyer would come in and say they wanted a thousand kilograms of a tea and a farmer, even if they produced, you know, 10, 20,000 kilograms, they probably didn't have the refinement part of it or if the grinding or post processing, processing equipment, they don't have the storage facility for all of that. So they probably sold off all of their leaf to a wholesaler who has the storage class.
[27:15] Valerie: Yeah.
[27:15] Ian: And so their opportunity to sell to a company that wants a thousand kilograms is very little. Like they don't have that opportunity because they don't actually have the product. Yeah. So if we're going to, if they, what they have is a little bit of that's left over from what they've sold off to the supply chain. That tea could be accessed by people around the world if there was a system that connects people. And so that's what we are, we are that platform that connects people between the artisanal, artisanal producers and the know, buyers around. Like they can be individuals and they can be like small specialty. And so that access is our contribution to the tea industry. Okay. We were more successful then would have been better but yeah, not as successful as we could have been I suppose. I don't know.
[28:15] Valerie: Well, you're still in the middle of it, right?
[28:16] Ian: Yeah, well I mean doing, been doing it for 14 years. So whether I'm in the middle of it or not, I, I don't know.
[28:23] Valerie: But let me ask you this question about your process because it's 14 years of, of learning and probably failing. Right. So I want to, yeah, I want to hear about, you know, your experience with failure. Like what, what has it taught you? What gives you the motivation to keep going?
[28:44] Ian: So, and it's been 14 years right now we've grown to, let's say by number of people. We have 23 people including our part timers and right now there's a lot of issues but in say like two years after I started, the amount of money that I had gathered for myself from my mother was very kind enough to lend me some money from my friends who invested. All of that had run out by 2016. I was like, well what should I do because I'm out of money. So I had to let go of the people I hired at that time and kept one person just as somebody to help me deal with day to day operations. And then at that time I was like, should I just give up and close the company? My son was born in 2014. Actually he was born on the day that I was part of a accelerator program and we're doing our, they were, they scheduled their practice, open demo day, pitch practice on the day that my son was born. So my son was born and then I came in and I was on, did it, did my pitch online. I'm like, hey, my son was just born. And so that was, that's kind of legendary in their company apparently. So my son was born. My wife was working at a very large company and on a manager's track making money. So she went back to work six months after, six months after my son was born and I took on sort of role of primary caregiver. So that could be done because my company was my company. I had the flexibility to, you know, not go to the office for, you know, three days at a time or sometimes a week if my son got sick. And so yeah, so that was a hard time because it was, you know, a new parent. I was a new parent as well as trying to run this business. And it was hard. It was hard. And I think that, I think that I stayed with it because my, I think my wife at that time was like, you're not making money, so why don't just close the company and come a stay at home father? Which was an option, right? I think it's from my point of view, like I, I on one hand, I'm non traditionalist in thinking that my wife was the primary breadwinner in the family. And I'm okay with that. But I'm also, I was also a traditionalist, I guess you could say a traditionalist in that I wanted to have an identity for myself as, as a successful business person. So I was like, I'm not going to do anything else anyway, so I'm just gonna make, continue running the company. As long as I don't lose money, then it was okay. So my wife was like, as long as you don't lose money, not pouring more money into the company that's not making money, then it's okay, you know, continue working on it as you take care of our child. I went through that time and, and the course of building up brand equity, I guess you could say, among connoisseurs around the world for a couple of years allowed us to finally reach break even point as long as I didn't earn a salary. And then after that, after, actually after the pandemic, maybe you would say that there's a lot more people who were buying online. So we were a lot better at that. I've kind of rambled, but what was your, what was the original question?
[32:26] Valerie: Oh yeah, the lessons from failure and
[32:29] Ian: like how, lessons from failure, like how
[32:30] Valerie: you, I guess how you've grown from it. Like what is, what keeps you going?
[32:35] Ian: What keeps me going? I, I wanted to do this like I still feel that like this is necessary for the industry to have like the platforms necessary for the industry. I think it's helped, I've helped companies find, I've helped companies build international businesses by promoting them, selling their products also myself, but also giving them an opportunity to be known on the global stage. And so that really keeps me, that purpose, keeps me going. I think. I like thinking about culture and I like thinking about what that means for, for daily life or your, your life. And so that's a different side of it that keeps me interested but without, without the motivation of the mission. I think that vision, vision of the company is to take Japanese culture and make it part of contemporary, integrated into contemporary life. The, that part of the vision is I think the core of why I'm doing it. But what keeps motivated is the mission of helping small scale producers. I think that also like actually I don't know how good I am at managing a company or operating a company, possibly not very good. And we've grown to a good scale not because I'm good at operating the company, but because we're doing something that's necessary in the market. You, you have a failure, you take what you can learn from it and you move on. But failing itself is, can be very like depressing.
[34:15] Valerie: Oh absolutely.
[34:18] Ian: So yeah, so I think, I think having purpose, whatever it is, is, is the, the strongest motivating factor in, in life, I guess.
[34:31] Valerie: Yeah.
[34:31] Ian: If you have a purpose to what you're doing that allows you, gives you a reason to overcome the, like the hurdles that you're confronted with. Even if you can't overcome them, you know, if you can't overcome them and you're a failure, the purpose is, is what it's end goal. It's, you know, wherever, whatever path you take, you're still, you're trying to get there. Whether it's enough for you to keep going or not isn't the question I say how dedicated to that purpose are you? Both the vision and the mission of what you establish. If it causes you so much stress and mental non well being to run the company, then the question is, is it worth it or not? Yeah, yeah. And in a sense, like I think If I was 20 years younger and I'm starting this again, I probably wouldn't have chosen this like this T. The T thing.
[35:37] Valerie: Yeah.
[35:38] Ian: I probably would have chosen something that would. And I don't know how I would have done it, but I probably would have chosen something that was more closer to something like preventing climate change. In terms of what is worthwhile. What is worthwhile as a. What is worthwhile to dedicate your life to? Culture is something that is worthwhile to dedicate your lives to. But at this, in this day and age, if the climate being all what it is, I mean, but then how would that, how would anything have helped? Right.
[36:14] Valerie: I guess to give you some positive perspective, it's, you know, when we do uplift culture and practices and agricultural products like tea, we are in a sense like putting more value on these things that would might otherwise be ignored.
[36:36] Ian: Maybe. Yeah, right.
[36:38] Valerie: Because like part of the macho culture is about beauty and you know, nature is inherently beautiful and but the thing is like our modern world is so caught up in productivity and distraction that we don't often see it. And so being able to promote something that slows us down and that has us be present, I think does have an effect on contributing to that cause. Right.
[37:04] Ian: In a sense as a merchant, I should say. Yes. The. I mean, but like Japanese or like agriculture in general is basically a form of. I see agriculture as something necessary for human life, obviously. Yeah. But agriculture is also a way that like forests are being destroyed. Right. So is tea necessary? No, it's not necessary for life. Is it necessary for Japanese culture? Yes, it is necessary for that culture. At least traditional Japanese culture and how Japanese culture has evolved into tea is a necessary component of that. But 10,000 years from now when Japan doesn't exist, or 1 million years from now when Japan doesn't exist, is tea important or not? I don't know. The. I mean like I. Here's another thing, like I like, I incredibly admire, I admire like this urban farming that is going on. If we could move in an extreme situation, we can move all of our farming into urban farming, utilize, minimize the land space and allow that land to regrow into forests. I mean how would that. Would that not. Maybe not practical, maybe not feasible in any time in the near future, but something to work towards. And I think those who are working towards takes all, takes all of the it takes all of the romance out of agriculture to have factory farms.
[38:52] Valerie: Right.
[38:53] Ian: But you know, from my point of view, like, if we could re. Re. Re. Populate is the word. Like the countryside with forests instead of rural communities. I love rural communities. I want to save the rural communities. And that's why, one of the reasons why I'm doing this, at the same time, should we lament the fact that rural communities are disappearing if the, if it all returns back to forest? I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's a different way of thinking and it's, you know, to say one is better than the other is an exchange that is impractical in actual conversation.
[39:37] Valerie: Yeah.
[39:37] Ian: There's always a compromise. There has to be a compromise, obviously. But. But yeah, like if, if a rural community disappears because there's nobody there to live there anymore, then I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
[39:52] Valerie: Right.
[39:54] Ian: You know, the more that we can help nature be, nature, you know, is better for. I mean, and then, of course, you know, like, you have to think about. Sustainability is not about saving the environment per se. It's about humans being able to live long term on this planet. Right.
[40:14] Valerie: Yeah.
[40:14] Ian: We want to sustain both the environments for our benefit. And so there are things that can be done. So like, tea is actually, you know, culturally, it's. Culturally, it's very important for Japan. It's becoming important for the world. I think it has a lot of potential if, If a culture of tea and mata can be created that allows people to find more balance in their life as a result of it, which I'm not sure is happening right now, by the way. I mean, it's a pursuit of art as well. And it's a pursuit of art that can be done in different ways. But.
[40:56] Valerie: Well, you, you brought up a lot of really interesting points and I wish we did have more time to dive into those because, like, I think it would be a really cool, distinct discussion. But we do have a customer coming in.
[41:07] Ian: Yeah. So we'll wrap it up, can have another conversation.
[41:11] Valerie: Yeah. Because I, I think in the future I want to ask you about some of the stuff you said about the environment and allowing. Allowing just nature to come back in to the places that humans are naturally also abandoning. And that's a completely different conversation. That's nothing to do with tea, but I think it's fascinating.
[41:29] Ian: I think, I think I know people we could bring in to have that conversation with would be very interesting. All right, thank you very much.
[41:37] Valerie: Thank you. Yeah, thanks. Everyone for tuning in.
[41:43] Valerie: Thank you for tuning in to from the Ashes. If what we talked about today resonates, if it feels on point with something you've been ruminating on by yourself, that's exactly why I'm here. From the Ashes exists for people who are tired of pretending life is fine and are ready to explore what it takes to truly embrace the road to who they really are. Every conversation is an honest, unfiltered account of someone's real life and the path they're walking toward a life they actually align with. If you want to explore this further for yourself, come join me in my vibrant, Visionary newsletter. It's a bi weekly letter filled with the Reflections podcast updates and what I'm contemplating plating between episodes. You can find the link in the show notes below. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.
